Comments on: It only looks like a homework problem… http://cstheory.blogoverflow.com/2011/09/it-only-looks-like-a-homework-problem/ The Theoretical Computer Science Stack Exchange Blog Fri, 18 Mar 2016 21:21:18 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.5.6 By: Raphael http://cstheory.blogoverflow.com/2011/09/it-only-looks-like-a-homework-problem/#comment-122 Sun, 02 Oct 2011 21:50:59 +0000 http://cstheory.blogoverflow.com/?p=561#comment-122 Tsuyoshi, Luca, we were given Ogden’s Lemma with proof in our first (undergraduate) theory course in second term. As you have noted, the proof is not considerably harder as the one of Pumping Lemma which was given as a special case.

I don’t think it was formally proven that OL is strictly more powerful than PL but we were given examples that convinced us.

But you are certainly right: You have to draw the line somewhere, and I can’t say that most students can use Ogden’s Lemma after that course.

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By: Tsuyoshi Ito http://cstheory.blogoverflow.com/2011/09/it-only-looks-like-a-homework-problem/#comment-118 Sun, 02 Oct 2011 18:57:58 +0000 http://cstheory.blogoverflow.com/?p=561#comment-118 Hi Raphael,

I would say that Ogden’s lemma is not typically taught in an undergraduate course in formal language theory. Considering that its proof is obtained just by a careful observation of a proof of the pumping lemma for CFL, I imagine that Ogden’s lemma can be one of the possible advanced topics covered in such a course. But clearly we have to draw a line somewhere.

To fully motivate Ogden’s lemma, we would like to argue that it is strictly stronger than the pumping lemma. However, showing that the non-context-freeness of some language cannot be proved by the pumping lemma seems to be beyond the scope of an undergraduate course. This might be one of the reasons why Ogden’s lemma is not taught in many undergraduate courses.

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By: Andy D http://cstheory.blogoverflow.com/2011/09/it-only-looks-like-a-homework-problem/#comment-106 Mon, 26 Sep 2011 12:43:27 +0000 http://cstheory.blogoverflow.com/?p=561#comment-106 Nce. I’ve heard that there are some quite simple languages whose context-free status is still unknown. Can anyone back this up with examples? One of them might have been

$\{xx’: x, x’$ are of equal length, and disagree in at most 2 positions$\}$.

Also, consider the kind of algorithmic problem that Cem Say’s example suggests. We’re given an expression in some grammar augmented with variable exponents (i, j, k, etc.), along with some relations between these–perhaps just inequalities, perhaps also arithmetic relations. Question: is the resulting language regular? Context-free?

Obviously with a rich-enough grammar or set of exponent-relation constraints this is going to be undecidable. But what is the simplest specification vocabulary for which this problem is undecidable?

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By: Luca Aceto http://cstheory.blogoverflow.com/2011/09/it-only-looks-like-a-homework-problem/#comment-105 Mon, 26 Sep 2011 09:49:55 +0000 http://cstheory.blogoverflow.com/?p=561#comment-105 Raphael,

For what it is worth, I have taught this material at a few universities in Europe and I have never taught Ogden’s Lemma. In fact, the Pumping Lemma for CFL is already hard enough for most undergraduate students.

You write: “the fact that there is a “stronger version” of pumping lemma for CFL should be handed to all students.” I guess that this is correct for theory-oriented graduate students, but I believe that in an undergraduate course our main goal should be to give students a flavour of the material and entice them towards further study of the material in the future. Less is actually more. (For instance, we do not teach students many different versions of the Pumping Lemma for regular languages.)

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By: Raphael http://cstheory.blogoverflow.com/2011/09/it-only-looks-like-a-homework-problem/#comment-102 Fri, 23 Sep 2011 18:15:05 +0000 http://cstheory.blogoverflow.com/?p=561#comment-102 Is $IN_0 = \mathbb{N}_0$? If so, it should say “non-negative integers”.

I wonder; is Ogden’s Lemma not typically taught in undergrad theory lectures? I know it was presented to us. I always have to look its exact formulation up, but the fact that there is a “stronger version” of pumping lemma for CFL should be handed to all students.

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